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On 7/15/2006 04:30:00 PM, JanieBelle waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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Well I feel better now.
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On 7/15/2006 04:42:00 PM, waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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Yes, I think you vented a lot of spleen there.
Anyway, if homosexuality is so unnatural, why has it been observed in many animal species, and in many epochs and societies in history?
Besides, if it was a lifestyle choice, how come so many homosexuals spend so much time as teenagers feeling confused and different? Wouldnt they rather just not be attracted to the same sex, and avoid all the hassle?
One of my best friends is a lesbian, and she was the one who helped get it home that people are people, no matter what their sexual orientation or anything else.
The comments on that thread are quite good, kind of worth reading.
Anyhow, the evidence that we have so far gathered scientifically, suggests that homosexuality is due in part to hormonal conditions in the womb, probably allied to various genetic and environmental factors. This of course makes it not something that people have any control over.
guthrie
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On 7/15/2006 05:03:00 PM, JanieBelle waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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Hi guthrie,
We're always so glad to see you. Thank you for contributing here, we are really happy to see your comments. You're right, I think I nearly blew a gasket there.
I know you didn't mean to imply anything negative, but something else needs to be addressed here.
I don't think (and Kate here concurs) that sexual preference (or lack thereof) is just something one 'has no control over'. Again, I know you didn't mean to imply this, but it almost makes it sound like a birth defect. Like "don't judge them, they can't help being deformed."
Your original statement is true as far as it goes. But people unfortunately need to be reminded that sexuality is like hair color, or nose length. Having a sexual orientation that's in the minority is no different than having ears that are bigger than most, or feet that are smaller than most.
Of course, a lack of sexual preference is much more fun than having big ears, but I think you get what I'm trying to say. I just wish that the rest of the world did.
And Marcus Kindley is still a disgusting piece of spooge.
(This comment was a collaborative effort, just so y'know.)
Roses to guthrie from both of us.
A whole dozen.
Raspberries to Marcus Kindley.
A whole dozen.
Post Snuffleupagus digestion, of course.
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On 7/15/2006 05:08:00 PM, JanieBelle waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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Wow, we really went from The Sublime to the sewer in one post, didn't we?
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On 7/15/2006 05:34:00 PM, JanieBelle waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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So we've established that sexuality is not a choice, and it's not a birth defect.
But what about being a disgusting piece of spooge?
It's obviously a defect, it inhibits the carrier's ability to interact with sane people.
So, Birth or Choice?
Defend your answer.
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On 7/15/2006 05:35:00 PM, waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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Again, I know you didn't mean to imply this, but it almost makes it sound like a birth defect. Like "don't judge them, they can't help being deformed."
Yes, thats a good point. Its difficult sometimes to avoid using language in ways that make more trouble. But then we come back to trying to work out how much it is innate or chosen, and if there is a great deal of choice in the matter, you will always get people saying that people have deliberately chosen the evil way. "So what", you say.
Well, in one sense it wouldnt matter at all. In another, it probably doesnt help general acceptance of homosexuality as normal.
hhmmm, there was another subtle point i was going to make there, but you'l probably pick up on it, since i have forgotten it.
And you should also not take this to mean that i think we should go around saying that homosexuality is in built, even if there is no evidence to support the statement, since that would be making things up, which I disagree with.
guthrie
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On 7/15/2006 05:37:00 PM, waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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Ahh, as for your challenge about disgusting pieces of spooge, I say this:
"Paired opposites define your longings and those longings imprison you.
-- The Zensunni Whip"
Bonus points if you have any idea where the quote came from.
guthrie
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On 7/15/2006 05:46:00 PM, JanieBelle waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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Dune.
(but I had to google it.)
More roses for you,
I'll take a raspberry, I should have known that one.
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On 7/15/2006 05:50:00 PM, JanieBelle waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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So I'm having a moment here.
It's very deep. Thought provoking.
But is it true?
Herein, I believe lies a mystery worth contemplation.
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On 7/15/2006 05:54:00 PM, JanieBelle waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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Here's an interesting take and commentary on it.
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On 7/15/2006 06:01:00 PM, JanieBelle waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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"Don't wish they understood, make them understand."
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On 7/15/2006 06:01:00 PM, waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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*piles bonus points on Janie*
(I havnt worked out what they should be, yet)
I cannot recall exactly which chapter of which book the Zensunni whip started off, but I think it was relevant to that chapter. Taken on its own, I take it to have several potential meanings, or layers. For example, words, such as good or evil, to take the most obvious example, are basic black and white, opposite statements. As used by the subject of this thread. Natural/ unnatural, true/ false, disgusting/ tasty (I couldnt think of a better word to pair with it).
Yet in the universe we inhabit, there seem to be large grey areas in our definitions of words. And one of Herberts common themes was how people like to use absolutes, and these therefore limit peopels thinking.
"It cannot be both a wave and aparticle, therefore quantum mechanics is a load of balderdash"
and so on.
From my point of view, that bit you found on it is not quite right, it follows the standard Herbertian view but does not quite agree with the Zensunni whip.
guthrie
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On 7/15/2006 06:04:00 PM, JanieBelle waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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Ahh sensai, the yin without the yan is meaningless.
Better?
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On 7/15/2006 06:14:00 PM, waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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Possibly worse. In the Yin/ Tang concept, as far as I understand it, the two opposites are thought of as mixing and always in movement. Whereas the normal "western" dichotomy of paired opposites is unending and unchanging, with no mixing going on.
Yet in the paired opposites conception, you are right, both words need each other. Its just that we take them as being more rigidly defined. I sometiems run across people who are extremely logical and have everything defined down to a T, and tehrefore arguing with them is frustyrating, because i am so aware of the context and shifting definitions of the stuff we argue about.
WHere the understand/ understood quote from? I dont quite recognise it.
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On 7/15/2006 06:19:00 PM, JanieBelle waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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I once had an instructor who sat me down and explained to me how the symbol we see associated with the yin and yan is an evolved form.
In the beginning, there was a circle of one color, and it was white, and it was to describe the universe.
But it did not describe all of the universe, because not all was white.
So there came to be a division in the circle, so that the circle was half black and half white.
Yet it still did not describe the universe, because what is black now may be white later, and what is white here, may be black there.
So the wavy form replaced the line as a division.
Still, it did not describe the universe completely, because in all white, there is some black, and in all black, there is some white.
So the symbol evolved into the form we see today, and perfectly describes the universe and everything in it.
The universe is made of shades of gray. It is a continuum of continuums. There is no small, medium, large of anything. Everything must be seen relative to everything else.
Falwell is a bigger doo doo head than Kindley, who in turn is a bigger doo doo head than Charlie the weirdo who was emailing me a while back.
The quote to which you refer was me. I've always enjoyed being quoted, selfish as I am, and hadn't seen anyone else do it lately, so I did it myself.
:)
Sort of a take off of "Stop TRYING to hit me and HIT ME!"
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On 7/15/2006 06:28:00 PM, waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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Yeah, that sounds about right with regards to the Yin/Yang.
Its your own quote? Nice quote, I might use it myself some time.
As long as people dont take it mean that if they dont understand we're going to come along and torture them, since that sometimes seems to happen when someone is determined that you understand something.
"It is imperative that you understand this concept, so we'll keep you in every break time and after school until you do."
And hitting people with swords is a lot easier when you just do it, rather than think about doing it.
guthrie
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On 7/15/2006 06:36:00 PM, JanieBelle waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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Yep, my quote, and feel free.
Gotcha, and concur on the teaching vrs torture.
So back to the whip. Please continue. We're feeling very zenny here now.
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On 7/15/2006 06:46:00 PM, JanieBelle waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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You know what, guthrie.
We appreciate your time, and your conversation, but we just noticed how late it's getting in Falkirk.
We can take this up tomorrow.
Love and Kisses
JanieBelle and Corporal Kate.
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On 7/15/2006 06:46:00 PM, waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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Sorry, I'm all zenned out here. I can't remember any more relevant Herbert quotes, and its time for me to go to bed.
good chat though. Feel free to carry on musing when I'm not here, its fun seeing where this can go.
guthrie
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On 7/15/2006 06:49:00 PM, JanieBelle waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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Will do, guthrie.
Good night,
And dream a little dream of us.
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On 7/15/2006 09:56:00 PM, JanieBelle waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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Well after all that zen, and a long talk between Kate and me, I have one more thought this evening about my post.
I have looked into the eyes of the monster, and he is me.
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On 7/15/2006 11:50:00 PM, blipey waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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On July 15, 2006 6:34 PM, JanieBelle said...
So we've established that sexuality is not a choice, and it's not a birth defect.
Well, I'll nitpick here a little. We certainly have not established this here. I certainly agree with the sentiment of your statement, but establishing something actually requires more than stating it. I only object, because sloppy thinking makes my skin crawl. Want to say right off that I'm just mentioning this as it sets a bad example for others.
What I really wanted to comment on though was Guthrie's take on Frank Herbert:
And one of Herberts common themes was how people like to use absolutes, and these therefore limit peopels thinking.
To my thinking, this is one of the greatest dangers in modern society. Absolutes make things easier. If we can be told everything in black and white it does two things:
1. Eases the workload in our lives by reducing the amount of thinking we have to do.
2. Eases any moral obligations one might otherwise feel by removing the burden from us and placing it one step further out.
We are not "read" the news anymore. We are told what to think about it. News has spin before it ever hits the public airwaves. And lots of people like it this way.
"Just tell me what to think so I can go off and do things that are really important."
This attitude is making itself felt in our schools, the workplace & halls of government. We are becoming, more and more, a society that is putting the important thinking one step further off.
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On 7/16/2006 04:27:00 AM, waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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Good morning!
Great minds think alike, I see, I left just as you suggested I did so.
As for Blipeys comment, I agree about putting important thinking one step further away. The problem is in what to do about it. In a globalised economic situation, mass media, mass democracy, in a world full of spin, I say it is kind of hard to make all the important decisions about yourself, because the choices you are offered are often restricted.
And to be honest, if you read old news and suchlike, going back into the 19th century etc, you can see how the news has spin on it before it reaches you. However for a large part of the 19th century (At least in the UK) there were alternative media outlets, shall we say, that helped promote vigorous alternatives.
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On 7/16/2006 06:32:00 AM, JanieBelle waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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'mornin' fellas. It's a beautiful day to be almost not in the Corps.
:)
On 16Jul06 at 00:50 blipey said...
"Well, I'll nitpick here a little. We certainly have not established this here. I certainly agree with the sentiment of your statement, but establishing something actually requires more than stating it. I only object, because sloppy thinking makes my skin crawl. Want to say right off that I'm just mentioning this as it sets a bad example for others."
I picked the same nit with her last night. Part of our "zen discussion" last night included some thoughts on popular meanings of words vs. scientific meanings of words.
Establish, prove, and theory to be specific. Then we moved on to peer review.
She gets it, i think. I think in this conversation she was speaking more in the popular meaning, so I let her slide with only a minor repremand. (which she sorta enjoyed, by the way ;))
Janie's pretty good about trying to think for herself. This laptop has been positively smoking with all the stuff she's been looking up. I think she's starting to get the idea about how devoid (to use a Janie-word) of science ID really is.
Every time she looks into some idea about ID, she's finding out what a slippery little eel it is.
She's big on personal responsibility in her own way, too. She makes mistakes just like the rest of us, but when they are pointed out to her, she doesn't really have a problem with "Oh, I was wrong. Sorry."
She might be a little quick on the trigger, but when she shoots the wrong guy she's also quick to apologize and patch him up. 'course it would be better if she was a little more careful pulling the trigger in the first place, but whatcha gonna do?
I can tell you she really does like talking to you guys, though. She was really into the zen last night.
"Just so y'know" as she says.
(she's so cute when she says that.)
You guys made it a little hard for me to get her into (and then out of of course) her jammies. But I'll let it slide for the cause.
:)
Anyway, I'll let her know you stopped by as soon as she opens her eyes the rest of the way.
(I think I've mentioned that she doesn't close them all the way when she sleeps. It's very sexy.)
Corporal Kate
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On 7/16/2006 08:01:00 AM, JanieBelle waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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It's a beautiful day to be in the arms of your lover, though.
:)
J
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On 7/16/2006 09:50:00 AM, blipey waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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Guthrie said:
And to be honest, if you read old news and suchlike, going back into the 19th century etc, you can see how the news has spin on it before it reaches you. However for a large part of the 19th century (At least in the UK) there were alternative media outlets, shall we say, that helped promote vigorous alternatives.
I absolutely agree that yellow journalism (or milder sorts of spin factors) is not a new phenomenon. Put our ability to produce it and opportunity to injest it has increased so much that it is hard to escape. I do not put all of the responsibility on the media for this--they are, after all, producing what they believe their audience wants. And in large part they are correct or they'd be out of print, off the air, etc.
In a globalised economic situation, mass media, mass democracy, in a world full of spin, I say it is kind of hard to make all the important decisions about yourself, because the choices you are offered are often restricted.
I also agree with Guthrie here. I don't think it's necessary that you make all decisions in your life--pert near impossible. However, I do believe it is your responsibility to be involved in as much of the decision making as possible.
It is this attitude of passive acceptance of the spin that frustrates me. I feel people are often disengaging themselves from the decisions they CAN make in order to more easily move through life; that's lazy. And the attitude spills over into aspects other than news watching: the sciences, public art, attitudes on social behavior, etc.
We need to actively engage in the world around us, otherwise we rely completely on the business of strangers--a slippery proposition at best.
Though I am not naturally honest, I am so sometimes by chance.
-Autolycus, The Winter's Tale IViv
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On 7/17/2006 06:41:00 AM, JanieBelle waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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Just to add my two cents to Janie's original post...
It's funny how "breathtaking inanity" crops up all over the place, ain't it?
Corporal Kate
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On 7/17/2006 06:43:00 AM, JanieBelle waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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Oh, and I think "disgusting piece of spooge" covers it quite nicely, too, don't you?
It just rolls off the tongue with a certain flair...
She's so good at turning a phrase.
CK
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On 7/17/2006 08:16:00 AM, waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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We need to actively engage in the world around us, otherwise we rely completely on the business of strangers--a slippery proposition at best.
WEllllll, the way I would see it nowadays is that we have little choice but to rely to a much greater extent than in the past, upon the business of strangers.
Why do we have so many lawyers, if not for the fact that they appear when contracts are needed in societies made up strangers?
guthrie
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On 7/17/2006 08:46:00 AM, JanieBelle waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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use angle tags, guthrie.
Kisses,
Bo'fus
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On 7/17/2006 06:44:00 PM, blipey waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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Hmmm. I think this is a good point:
WEllllll, the way I would see it nowadays is that we have little choice but to rely to a much greater extent than in the past, upon the business of strangers.
I am not advocating for complete self-reliance or personal isolationism; that'd be dumb (not to mention suicidal in today's society).
In that there are very few (or maybe zero) Renaissance Men around, I think we've seen that one man can't know everything, or even really be up on everything.
My complaint is not in the handing over of specifics to strangers, but the propensity to hand over the broad themes of life to strangers. On the ID / EVO topic, I always rely on the biologists to inform me of the great many things I don't know. I really on my mechanic to keep my 9 year old car on the road.
I do not, however, turn my brain over to strangers and allow them to make my attitudes. We can rely on strangers to and the strangeness of the world to give us raw material. We need to bring our own opinions to the table in evaluating them. We can then seek out help if we want to further investigate it.
It is self-proclaimed experts that have no need to use their own brains because they have received their wisdom that I am complaining about.
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On 7/18/2006 03:54:00 AM, waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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Ahhh, rennaisance men- that time has definitely passed us by, but what I reckon is also important is that advances in science and industry and social stuff is generally comprehendable by the man in the street. Alright, not every man in the street, but at least a moderately well educated man in the street, or someone with little education but an inquiring mind.
I reckon we passed that stage back in the 50's or 60's. Ever since then, there's been too many skeins of investigation, too many schools of thought, too much data and structure of the world to comprehend. I am at a conference on carbon just now, and I understand a fair bit of the presentations only because I have spent 5 years at uni, and 2 years at my current place of work, and have a general interest in all science.
I'm afraid that everyone else reading this blog would be totally lost, like I would be if you asked me to get out there and actin a Shakespeare play. Whereas I get the impression that a reasonably competent person had a better chance of both acting and being able to comprehend early 20th century science, but now, theres just too much.
Hence specialisation, and reliance upon the goodwill of others, and the growth of professionalism, and importance of paperwork, and lawyers.
hhmmpph. having written all that I've re-read Blipeys post and seen that he's off on a slightly different line, which I shall address later.
guthrie
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On 7/18/2006 08:06:00 AM, waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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It is self-proclaimed experts that have no need to use their own brains because they have received their wisdom that I am complaining about.
Oh, of course, of this nobody would disagree. The tricky bit is the interface between things you find out about through other people, and how, since you have to trust other people, like your car mechanic, they can, without you knowing, help shape your world outlook.
The media being the obvious example.
I suppose I'm trying to get across how it is possible to get out of kilter with anything approaching "reality" even by not handing over your thought processes to others, i.e. even by not accepting handed down dogma.
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On 7/18/2006 02:46:00 PM, blipey waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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I'm going to say I generally agree with you, guthrie. Really don't know why I'm going round at this point. Probably trying to articulate the absurdities of people who are ignorant and see no need to change.
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On 7/19/2006 07:38:00 AM, waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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For example- look at the entire political spectrums outlook on why you went into Iraq, (And our prime minister followed like the good little poodle he is) and you can see people from all sides suggesting the same and different scenarios, often from almost the same evidence.
As for going round in circles, I suppose we all do that, i just did it myself upthread.
We shall see if our gracious hostess manages to go round in circles or keeps coming up with new stuff.
guthrie
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On 7/28/2006 11:33:00 AM, JanieBelle waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...
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I just peeked back through some of the older threads and saw that I totally missed the end of this conversation.
I certainly hope that Kate and I haven't disappointed you guys.
Kisses,
JanieBelle and Kate
